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Driv3r
Reviews. Were PSM2 & XBW honest? (Part
II)
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monomaniacpat
Experienced Member

Joined: 16 Apr 2003
Posts:
1636
Location: The Scabb Island
graveyard...

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:48
pm    Post
subject:

nellis
wrote:

So to Driv3r. It's a great game
and we stand by the review. Our staffie played
it to completion and loved it, as did the man
who wrote our tips guide. However, with regard
to the technical issues raised on this forum
then you may have a point. Because of the long
lead times for magazines and the fact that it
was an exclusive review, the code we reviewed
from was not final. We were made aware of
some bugs in the game and were promised that
these would be sorted by the time of
release.

So what you are saying is
that, not only did you not actually review the
game in its unfinished form, but were willing to
ignore (fairly major) bugs in the game, on the
promise that they would be fixed?! What if
Reflections gave you a really crappy game and said
"We'll make sure this game is fun before release"
- I suppose it would be worth an 8/10, would it?
Now - fair enough - I'm not saying that Driv3r is
definately rubbish (haven't played it) - but what
you have done is to betray the trust between you
and your readers.

Effectively, you have
allowed greater potential sales, generated by the
'exclusive review' tag to cloud your judgement,
and recommend a game on the basis of incomplete
code. This means that the (relatively few) gamers
who read magazine reviews to guide them in their
buying process have been led into spending £40 on
a game which you claimed to have played, but which
really sits on your desk, unopened. That's a great
review policy, well done.

gismalla
wrote:

P.S. A 6/10 for no enjoyment and
fundamental flaws?
Blimey.

Too right - 6/10 would be
far too generous for a game with no enjoyment - I
think a 1/10 would be in order,
there.
_________________
The mapman is dead,
get over it.
Currently
Playing: Star Wars: Knights of the Old
Republic (Xbox)

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trelliz
Member

Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts:
270
Location: Over there...

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:38
pm    Post
subject:

I only really
get 2 games mags, OXM and Official Nintendo
Magazine. I get OXM because of the playable demos,
where i can see for myself
whether a game will be any good, also the
Play:More stuff can be good sometimes. Official
Nintendo Magazine because they have some great
freebies on the front (like the Smash Bros.
Soundtrack CD). I browse the pages, as they
sometimes have little tidbits of information
hidden in the 'news in brief' sections that are
interesting, i look at the reviews to see some
screens of the game, as well as taking a brief
look at the score.

There are some games i
won't buy because i know i won't like them. What i
mean by this is that i'm not a footy fan at all,
so buying PES would be a silly idea because i just
don't care enough to be interested.

I take
magazine reviews as a guideline, always seeing
what else has been said on sites like IGN and
Gamespot, as well as looking at the reviews on
gamefaqs and on the reviews board here as well.
Here are some examples of games that I have and
really like, as well as their scores in OXM:

1. Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
OXM
says "By turns, wondrous, unconventional and
boring, Unique, but slow." Scores 7.6

I
disagree. It isn't turn-based (if that's what they
mean), and as for boring that's a matter of
opinion. It takes a while to get going, but it
doesn't start you off whupping ass straight away,
it takes time to build up.

2. Manhunt

OXM says "Simple top-shelf adult actioner
that'll provide just enough laughs to cover it's
cost." Scores 7.5.

Fair enough, but it's
much deeper than that. It's a parody on reality TV
society and along with other philosophical guff
that would take a long time to explain here. It's
stealth but eeeeeevil. Rockstar breaking the mold
of conventions. They're like the Quentin
Tarantino/Oliver Stone/Stanley Kubrick/Alfred
Hitchcocks of the game world.

3. Steel
Battalion
OXM says "Will only appeal to gamers
who appreciate a truly in-depth simulation."
Scores 7.8

Well it's lucky that i do, as
well as having a love affair with big stompy
robots and a HUGE controller to control the
stomping.

So don't take reviews as law,
play the game first, either at a mate's, on one of
those in-shop game units (that are NEVER on) or
rent it first.

(Everything said in the
above post is entirely my own opinion and is
subject to acceptance or dismisal, so PLEASE don't
start another flame war over this as they are
REALLY boring)
_________________

Diehard
wrote:

I recommend Halo 2, I think it
looks like it's going to be quite good

abcd
wrote:

Actually its PGR2. You can
clearly make out the buildings of Florence and
the happy sun highlights
this.

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Big_Damn_Hero
Starting Member

Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts:
2

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:49
pm    Post
subject:

I've finally
stopped laughing.

Right. *Cracks Knuckles*

Nick, this isn't aimed directly at you.
These decisions were made above you, by people who
have sent you here to get a kicking in their place
because they are spineless t*ssers afraid to speak
for themselves. Why isn’t your editor here? You're
not responsible for this mess. Where’s your
publisher?

So, I'm sorry.

Oh, and
I AM expecting Future types to delete this post,
so read it quick.

nellis
wrote:

First off I'd like to totally
refute the suggestion that magazines, and
specifically XBW, take bribes - monetary or
otherwise - to inflate review
scores.

Good one. You don't take bribes, I
agree. Bribes are in brown envelopes. THIS is
called business, and it's all agreed and above
board, and rife in the games mag industry. I was
in games mags when you were crawling so I know how
this works. "So we get the first review, exclusive
cover art, and several pages of premium Atari
advertising, and all we have to do is fool our
readers? What a deal!"

nellis
wrote:

Further to this, the allegation
that there is some grand conspiracy between
ourselves and Atari - 'you give it a nine, we'll
lob a sticker on the box and a page in the
manual' - is again wrong. The sticker was agreed
on only after the review had been written and
sent to press.

Yes and Atari agreed to
give you the first review regardless of the score
you gave the game too I expect?

nellis
wrote:

So to Driv3r. It's a great game
and we stand by the review.

That’s a lowdown dirty
trick and you know it. It’s the best of two bad
options isn’t it mate? Admit that you knowingly
lied to your loyal readership while chugging
Satan’s fat one, or say “We stick by it” when you
know that you don’t stick by it at all (you’re
actually crying inside aren’t you?). This excuse
is usually followed at some point by the “it’s all
subjective” line…

A few years ago
Paragon’s “64 Magazine” uttered the classic
“Mission: Impossible – better than Goldeneye!”.
The response was much the same then. Everyone went
“Eh?”. But instead of admitting that they had an
arrangement with Infogrames (well now, isn’t that
interesting?) they simply “stood by” one of the
insanest statements I’ve ever heard until the mag
eventually closed up shop!

Even EDGE has
apologised on occasion (funnily enough, for not
giving GoldenEye a 10), and they lost no
credibility in the process. Be a man fer
chrissakes.

nellis
wrote:

Because of the long lead times
for magazines and the fact that it was an
exclusive review, the code we reviewed from was
not final.

This sentence makes no
sense to me. I don’t understand. Did you judge The
Order of the Phoenix by that snippet that appeared
in the papers? “Dumbledore sat Harry down…”

It’s a 9!

You cannot review that
which is not finished. By definition this is a
preview.

YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW.
Shame on you.

nellis
wrote:

We were made aware of some bugs
in the game and were promised that these would
be sorted by the time of
release.

Oh My God. You are an Dep
Editor in a games mag. Are you 12? Have you been
doing this job for a week? No. In which case you
have come up against this age-old PR trick time
and time again over your months or years doing
this job have you not? Saying you believed them
doesn't justify your stupidity. Of course they
said the bugs would be sorted out. THEY ALWAYS DO.
And they always lie. Especially Shitari, as well
you know. When was the last time they released any
game that was any cop? If you discount
Transformers and the UT series, there's been
nothing in their catalogue, FOR YEARS, that was
even worth touching. And they're one of the
biggest publishers around? Why? Because of YOU and
people like you. Ubisoft (for example) have
released more great games in the last six months
than Atari / Infogrames have since the company was
fomed. And then there's Reflections. Driver was
good enough. But Driver 2 was unfinished twaddle!
Stuntman was unfinished twaddle! Why did anyone
ever believe that Driver 3 would be anything other
than unfinished twaddle?

nellis
wrote:

we will speak to
Atari.

Aaaaaaahhhh ha ha ha ha ha
haaaaa. You going to tell them off are you? Chide
them? Sorry I'm laughing again now. You're their
bitch, NOT the other way round.

nellis
wrote:

Perhaps.

Just stop being an
obstinate git and retract it will you?

nellis
wrote:

3 or a 6 would suggest that the
game is fundamentally
broken

And you have a problem with
truth do you?

And you'd give a
fundamentally broken game with little enjoyment
value a 6? Oh my.

nellis
wrote:

At the end of the day, Bob, much
of this is surely down to personal opinion and
taste.

This. Right Here.

This is the problem with games reviewing
today. Allows you cheating weasels to slime your
way out of anything. This sentence is equivalent
to saying "Well, the existence of our mag is
pretty f*ck*ng pointless really." Doesn’t it?

On one hand you’re going “buy the mag! It
will help you make the right choice! We are the
vanguard of taste, we know our stuff!” and on the
other you’re going, quietly “But you might have to
discount everything we say as it’s all just
subjective really ain’t it?”

It is your
job to seperate the good games from the bad ones.
This isn't music, this isn't film. Opinion matters
less than in other forms of media. I like The Mars
Volta - they have produced one of the greatest
albums I have ever heard. Maybe you hate them
(probably) but like Suede instead – whereas I
think they are shite. Music is just taste.
Whereas, games can JUST BE CRAP. I pride myself on
being able to tell good games from bad ones
whether I like them or not. A good reviewer should
know the damn difference. You’re in the wrong
career. Get a job in politics.

nellis
wrote:

Can I point you in the direction
of OXM's Shadow Ops review in their current
issue? This is in no way a personal attack on
Gavin Ogden (we'll leave the petty bitching to
Xbox Gamer) but 8/10 is, in our opinion, a very
very high score for the
game.

Some more nice
weaselwork. Good stuff. All you are doing is
pointing out that all you mags are as bad as each
other. Only EDGE and, perhaps even more so,
GamesTM can really be trusted these days. I work
for neither by the way.

nellis
wrote:

I'm currently having a heated
discussion with the boss about Leilani and
whether she's hot to trot or not. She is, he's
entirely wrong, I am entirely right.

It's fundamentally
different mate. If her leg fell off while you were
screwing her, and you'd just paid £44.99 for the
privilege you'd be pretty annoyed.

So
stop being a dick. XBM, PSM2, all of you. Your
first priority is to your damn readers. If your
reviews can be trusted, you will be bought by more
people, and get advertising as a result of your
reach, rather than your score massaging skills and
ability to nosh a certain PR guy off.

People in this industry need to grow a
damn backbone and start speaking the truth before
it dies from under us. Can you imagine Atari’s
boardroom right now? Full of rich old gits that
don’t know anything about games, counting their
money and cheering about how great they are, while
the PR guy stands wafting copies of YOUR mags
under their noses. No-one thinks they’ve put a
foot out of line. They think they’ve made a great
game and are probably planning the next (again,
rushed) instalment right now. Everyone’s
congratulating each other on a job well done –
except it’s not, it’s another step towards the
games industry crash of the early 80s happening
again.

Ironically enough, that crash was
caused by Atari…

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Matthew
Member

Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts:
130

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:53
pm    Post
subject:

Steve doesn't
have extra sources at all, btw. He just has a link
to a thread on Spong.com, and the comments of a
guy called Intello Jello.

http://spong.com/en/html/forum/viewThread.jsp?message=2121

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fox
Starting Member

Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts:
1

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:00
pm    Post
subject:

Just copy and
paste the long, vitriolic post, and then if it
gets deleted post it again, and keep on doing it
until somebody dies.

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Thanatos
Veteran Member

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts:
4252
Location: The Quiet Place

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:05
pm    Post
subject:

What a read.

Well Ive got it saved. Just
incase...y'know....
_________________

>The
Sprouty place<

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Dav2k
Veteran Member

Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Posts:
4671
Location: Come and get me...

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:08
pm    Post
subject:

I had a bit of
a go of it today for the first time, wasn't too
bad at all. Although I've never been a big fan of
Driver it seemed not much has changed greatly. The
AI was a bit pap but I quite enjoyed it. Wouldn't
buy it though.
_________________

>> Currently
Playing: GR Top Trumps
<<

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KKLEIN
Veteran Member

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts:
8444
Location: Misery Guts Avenue

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:09
pm    Post
subject:

Matthew
wrote:

Steve doesn't have extra sources
at all, btw. He just has a link to a thread on
Spong.com, and the comments of a guy called
Intello Jello.

http://spong.com/en/html/forum/viewThread.jsp?message=2121

Well that was interesting. I
wonder who Intello Jello is though? Heh maybe
Steve does know something else?

I suggest
we all go down to Future Publishing in Bath &
have it out, face to face, with Greg Ingham - who
probably, in all honesty, won't have a clue what
we're talking about.
_________________
That's a disc drive.
What's been in them you ask? Well:

PS2 - Smackdown
HCTP, PSM2 disc 51.
Xbox - Driv3r

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the one and
only
Veteran
Member

Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts:
5656
Location: The Millenium Dome

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:11
pm    Post
subject:

Ripped open!

Whoever
that guy is, he is a legend!

If this
thread is deleted, I will take that as a
confirmation.

A confirmation of what
everybody here is thinking being
true.
_________________
Behind you,
boo!
...oh, wrong box.
Xbox Live
gamertag: Extreme Ironing

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The
Source
Experienced
Member

Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts:
808

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:49
pm    Post
subject:

Big_Damn_Hero
wrote:

I've finally stopped laughing.

Right. *Cracks Knuckles*

Nick,
this isn't aimed directly at you. These
decisions were made above you, by people who
have sent you here to get a kicking in their
place because they are spineless t*ssers afraid
to speak for themselves. Why isn’t your editor
here? You're not responsible for this mess.
Where’s your publisher?

So, I'm sorry.

Oh, and I AM expecting Future types to
delete this post, so read it quick.

nellis
wrote:

First off I'd like to totally
refute the suggestion that magazines, and
specifically XBW, take bribes - monetary or
otherwise - to inflate review
scores.

Good one. You don't take bribes, I
agree. Bribes are in brown envelopes. THIS is
called business, and it's all agreed and above
board, and rife in the games mag industry. I was
in games mags when you were crawling so I know
how this works. "So we get the first review,
exclusive cover art, and several pages of
premium Atari advertising, and all we have to do
is fool our readers? What a deal!"

nellis
wrote:

Further to this, the allegation
that there is some grand conspiracy between
ourselves and Atari - 'you give it a nine, we'll
lob a sticker on the box and a page in the
manual' - is again wrong. The sticker was agreed
on only after the review had been written and
sent to press.

Yes and Atari agreed to
give you the first review regardless of the
score you gave the game too I expect?

nellis
wrote:

So to Driv3r. It's a great game
and we stand by the review.

That’s a lowdown dirty
trick and you know it. It’s the best of two bad
options isn’t it mate? Admit that you knowingly
lied to your loyal readership while chugging
Satan’s fat one, or say “We stick by it” when
you know that you don’t stick by it at all
(you’re actually crying inside aren’t you?).
This excuse is usually followed at some point by
the “it’s all subjective” line…

A few
years ago Paragon’s “64 Magazine” uttered the
classic “Mission: Impossible – better than
Goldeneye!”. The response was much the same
then. Everyone went “Eh?”. But instead of
admitting that they had an arrangement with
Infogrames (well now, isn’t that interesting?)
they simply “stood by” one of the insanest
statements I’ve ever heard until the mag
eventually closed up shop!

Even EDGE has
apologised on occasion (funnily enough, for not
giving GoldenEye a 10), and they lost no
credibility in the process. Be a man fer
chrissakes.

nellis
wrote:

Because of the long lead times
for magazines and the fact that it was an
exclusive review, the code we reviewed from was
not final.

This sentence makes no
sense to me. I don’t understand. Did you judge
The Order of the Phoenix by that snippet that
appeared in the papers? “Dumbledore sat Harry
down…”

It’s a 9!

You cannot
review that which is not finished. By definition
this is a preview.

YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS
BY NOW. Shame on you.

nellis
wrote:

We were made aware of some bugs
in the game and were promised that these would
be sorted by the time of
release.

Oh My God. You are an Dep
Editor in a games mag. Are you 12? Have you been
doing this job for a week? No. In which case you
have come up against this age-old PR trick time
and time again over your months or years doing
this job have you not? Saying you believed them
doesn't justify your stupidity. Of course they
said the bugs would be sorted out. THEY ALWAYS
DO. And they always lie. Especially Shitari, as
well you know. When was the last time they
released any game that was any cop? If you
discount Transformers and the UT series, there's
been nothing in their catalogue, FOR YEARS, that
was even worth touching. And they're one of the
biggest publishers around? Why? Because of YOU
and people like you. Ubisoft (for example) have
released more great games in the last six months
than Atari / Infogrames have since the company
was fomed. And then there's Reflections. Driver
was good enough. But Driver 2 was unfinished
twaddle! Stuntman was unfinished twaddle! Why
did anyone ever believe that Driver 3 would be
anything other than unfinished twaddle?

nellis
wrote:

we will speak to
Atari.

Aaaaaaahhhh ha ha ha ha
ha haaaaa. You going to tell them off are you?
Chide them? Sorry I'm laughing again now. You're
their bitch, NOT the other way round.

nellis
wrote:

Perhaps.

Just stop being an
obstinate git and retract it will you?

nellis
wrote:

3 or a 6 would suggest that the
game is fundamentally
broken

And you have a problem
with truth do you?

And you'd give a
fundamentally broken game with little enjoyment
value a 6? Oh my.

nellis
wrote:

At the end of the day, Bob, much
of this is surely down to personal opinion and
taste.

This. Right Here.

This is the problem with games reviewing
today. Allows you cheating weasels to slime your
way out of anything. This sentence is equivalent
to saying "Well, the existence of our mag is
pretty f*ck*ng pointless really." Doesn’t it?

On one hand you’re going “buy the mag!
It will help you make the right choice! We are
the vanguard of taste, we know our stuff!” and
on the other you’re going, quietly “But you
might have to discount everything we say as it’s
all just subjective really ain’t it?”

It
is your job to seperate the good games from the
bad ones. This isn't music, this isn't film.
Opinion matters less than in other forms of
media. I like The Mars Volta - they have
produced one of the greatest albums I have ever
heard. Maybe you hate them (probably) but like
Suede instead – whereas I think they are shite.
Music is just taste. Whereas, games can JUST BE
CRAP. I pride myself on being able to tell good
games from bad ones whether I like them or not.
A good reviewer should know the damn difference.
You’re in the wrong career. Get a job in
politics.

nellis
wrote:

Can I point you in the direction
of OXM's Shadow Ops review in their current
issue? This is in no way a personal attack on
Gavin Ogden (we'll leave the petty bitching to
Xbox Gamer) but 8/10 is, in our opinion, a very
very high score for the
game.

Some more nice
weaselwork. Good stuff. All you are doing is
pointing out that all you mags are as bad as
each other. Only EDGE and, perhaps even more so,
GamesTM can really be trusted these days. I work
for neither by the way.

nellis
wrote:

I'm currently having a heated
discussion with the boss about Leilani and
whether she's hot to trot or not. She is, he's
entirely wrong, I am entirely right.

It's fundamentally
different mate. If her leg fell off while you
were screwing her, and you'd just paid £44.99
for the privilege you'd be pretty annoyed.

So stop being a dick. XBM, PSM2, all
of you. Your first priority is to your damn
readers. If your reviews can be trusted, you
will be bought by more people, and get
advertising as a result of your reach, rather
than your score massaging skills and ability to
nosh a certain PR guy off.

People in
this industry need to grow a damn backbone and
start speaking the truth before it dies from
under us. Can you imagine Atari’s boardroom
right now? Full of rich old gits that don’t know
anything about games, counting their money and
cheering about how great they are, while the PR
guy stands wafting copies of YOUR mags under
their noses. No-one thinks they’ve put a foot
out of line. They think they’ve made a great
game and are probably planning the next (again,
rushed) instalment right now. Everyone’s
congratulating each other on a job well done –
except it’s not, it’s another step towards the
games industry crash of the early 80s happening
again.

Ironically enough, that crash was
caused by
Atari…

Best post ever.

Quote:

-except it’s not, it’s another
step towards the games industry crash of the
early 80s happening again.

Ironically
enough, that crash was caused by
Atari

Amusing how the now
hated multi billion empire that is Electronic Arts
happened to be one of the few companys to surive
the crash of '83.

As for Driver 3 I'm having a
good laugh with it. Flawed? Yes, worth a 9? No.
Still for the £25 I paid for it it's given me a
chuckle and has been for the best part quite
enjoyable.

Oh and just for the record I
have never trusted game reviews. As I've said
before the only opinion that counts is mine.
_________________
http://www.pwned.nl/

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Steve
Moderator

Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts:
7344
Location: Hill Valley circa 1955

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:23
pm    Post
subject:

Matthew
wrote:

Steve doesn't have extra sources
at all, btw. He just has a link to a thread on
Spong.com, and the comments of a guy called
Intello Jello.

http://spong.com/en/html/forum/viewThread.jsp?message=2121

Why do you think I wrote
source in
quotation marks? It was because I didn't know the
person and wasn't sure of the credibility of the
guy.

=============

I had some other stuff
I wanted to say but I've had an e-mail from Will
so I'll keep it to myself. I'm 99% sure that my
source is providing valid truthful information but
if it is incorrect I don't fancy getting sued this
week.
_________________
Xbox
Live Gamer Tag: Steve007

Last edited by Steve on Tue
Jun 22, 2004 8:49 pm; edited 4 times in
total

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Steve
Moderator

Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts:
7344
Location: Hill Valley circa 1955

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:27
pm    Post
subject:

Thanatos
wrote:

Well Ive got it saved. Just
incase...y'know....

Future would achieve
nothing by deleting this thread. They'd just
confirm what people
suspect.
_________________
Xbox
Live Gamer Tag: Steve007

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Steve
Moderator

Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts:
7344
Location: Hill Valley circa 1955

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:35
pm    Post
subject:

Big_Damn_Hero
wrote:

I've finally stopped laughing.

Right. *Cracks Knuckles*

.....<snip>

Err, well you've stolen my
thunder!

I intended to write a large
response to Nick but you've said everything I
planned to say and some. Give yourself a pat on
the back.

I recognise your writing style
and I can't put a name to it. I'm sure we've
crossed paths before somewhere. If you want to
reveal your name drop me a
PM.
_________________
Xbox
Live Gamer Tag: Steve007

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KKLEIN
Veteran Member

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts:
8444
Location: Misery Guts Avenue

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:00
pm    Post
subject:

Steve
wrote:

I had some other
stuff I wanted to say but I've had an e-mail
from Will so I'll keep it to
myself.

It's quite obvious they've got
something to hide. Can't you post it on another
forum? If it's somewhere else Future cant do
anything about it.
_________________
That's a disc drive.
What's been in them you ask? Well:

PS2 - Smackdown
HCTP, PSM2 disc 51.
Xbox - Driv3r

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Thanatos
Veteran Member

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts:
4252
Location: The Quiet Place

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:03
pm    Post
subject:

Steve
wrote:

Thanatos
wrote:

Well Ive got it saved. Just
incase...y'know....

Future would achieve
nothing by deleting this thread. They'd just
confirm what people
suspect.

Well I was actually talking
about what B_D_H wrote....either way, you're
right. Deleting anything from here would just
confirm everything that's been
said.
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Sprouty place<

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