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Driv3r
Reviews. Were PSM2 & XBW honest? (Part
II)
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OctogenarianPussy
Experienced Member

Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts:
649
Location: Retard Proof Clothing - Available
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:33
pm    Post
subject:

Honesty and
trust.

What does nine mean? Nine means
fabulous, wonderful, enjoyable, great fun, well
worth your money. Nine does not mean, unplayable,
boring, unimaginitive, painful, broken,
unfinished.

Does it?

Let's not
confuse the message here. After all we're
consumers and we're stupid aren't we? I mean check
out the all formats chart FFS! I know!! Let's keep
getting bent over. I mean. We'll believe
everything they say won't we? Why? Because it's so
dissaffected man! It's just not worth the energy
is it? Basically we're all pretty lazy aren't we?

When something is wrong it should be made
known that it's wrong. People who are looking for
excuses for this shoddy mess are partly to
blame.
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Cal
Experienced Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts:
1324

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:41
pm    Post
subject:

Miriam_NGC
wrote:

Given that we don't HAVE a carp
fishing magazine (or indeed any other osrt of
fishing magazine), I'd say you're thinking of
another company
entirely.

I am. Emap. My mistake.

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Eighthours
Moderator

Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts:
6606
Location: Certainty

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:45
pm    Post
subject:

Pell
wrote:

The whole MK:DD thing was
illustrative purpose by me to show that it's not
right to accuse some people of bribery when in
other instances high scores are given without
anyone complaining. There is a fundamental flaw
in your arguements that mean you fail to see the
bigger picture. You criticise PSM2 and XBW
whilst never even thinking about other instances
with different magazines. Why should this be any
different?

With all due respect Pell,
the 2 situations aren't even remotely comparable.

MK:DD was reviewed by all mags in the same
month, there were no Nintendo PR bods telling
websites to withdraw reviews, there was no
question of pressure being put on publishers to
give the game a certain score.

With Driv3r
we've got only 2 mags on the shelves with reviews,
we've got buggy unfinished code being passed off
as final, and we've got all kinds of shenanigans
going on with the PR people who were threatening
websites with all sorts of nasty stuff if they
posted reviews before a certain date.

So,
in my view, it's you who is failing to see the
bigger picture.

Pell
wrote:

Whlie we're at it lets all post
lists of glitches and faults with GTA and
compare shall we? There are LOADS in the
Rockstar games, yet they are hailed as some of
the greatest games of all time. Maybe they don't
interfere with the gameplay as much as Driv3r,
but why is it reasonable to expect reviews not
to mention this fact about GTA yet you want them
to hammer Driv3r for the same thing? The
inconsistencies aren't in the reviews, but in
your expectations.

GTA3 came out in 2001.
That's 3
years ago. The technical flaws that Driv3r
demonstrates all over the shop are far far less
acceptable now. Also, if we fast-forward to this
October, and San Andreas comes out with a terrible
targetting system and bad on-foot sections, it's
going to get slated. The thing about GTA3 is that,
despite its technical limitations, 3 years later
it still plays superbly. I should know, I played
it myself on Sunday for 4 hours straight (going
through the double-pack, you see). What a contrast
to Driv3r, which I had played the previous day on
a demo pod. Driv3r's flaws ruin the game. There's
the nucleus of a good game struggling to get out,
but it never does. GTA3 basically invented the
"sandbox" vehicle game structure. Driv3r is far
more linear, and should therefore be more tightly
focussed. In that case, why are its missions so
unbalanced and so flawed?

You're entitled
to like Driv3r and so is everyone else. If you
think it's worth 90%, fine. If you think it's
worth 10%, equally fine. However I think you're
misunderstanding the point of this thread, which
is that some of the more shady journalistic
practises appear to have come out for the world to
see in this instance.

Despite its flaws,
GTA3 is a damn good game, lauded by critics and
consumers the world over. Driv3r isn't, and never
will be.
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Pell
Veteran Member

Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts:
2689
Location: Modding at The Fun House

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:59
pm    Post
subject:

Liste, I'm not
defending Driv3r (though it seems it). I haven't
played it and so cannot judge for myself. From
what you've said it's because these are the only 2
mags so far with reviews. Okay fair 'nuff. In that
case by using your arguement this would apply with
any situation where magazines happen to have
reviews before others. So when two magazines have
drastic difference of opinions in the same month
that's put down to reviewers prefernces, but if by
chance one had a deadline a few days later, so any
such conflicing review would be published a month
early, then eyebrows should be raised? this is all
hyperthetical!
Urgh hope that made sense?
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bear
Experienced Member

Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts:
1159
Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:05
pm    Post
subject:

But Pell people
are angry about the fact that they have been
deliberately misled by the magazines in question
over these games.Both published reviews of said
game and already one of the magazines has admitted
on here that said review was based on ubfinished
code and so surely cannot be taken seriously as
they have ignored many of the bugs that people
have had problems with.
People are not arguing
about the score itself per say more the reasons
why it was awarded which by all accounts points to
some sort of deal between Atari and the
magazines.

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punkeruk
Member

Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts:
177
Location: Manchester (United!)

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:12
pm    Post
subject:

Look at my
locked topic HERE and look at the smug way i
revealed the score. Little did i know every single
person on the forum already knew, so i just made
myslef look like a right tw*t.

Locked after 20 minutes aswell, is
that a record?
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going to die.

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Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in
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Eighthours
Moderator

Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts:
6606
Location: Certainty

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:12
pm    Post
subject:

Pell
wrote:

Liste, I'm not defending Driv3r
(though it seems it). I haven't played it and so
cannot judge for myself. From what you've said
it's because these are the only 2 mags so far
with reviews. Okay fair 'nuff. In that case by
using your arguement this would apply with any
situation where magazines happen to have reviews
before others. So when two magazines have
drastic difference of opinions in the same month
that's put down to reviewers prefernces, but if
by chance one had a deadline a few days later,
so any such conflicing review would be published
a month early, then eyebrows should be raised?
this is all hyperthetical!
Urgh hope that
made sense?

Yeah this has happened
before (see KKLEIN's post on the last page for
examples) but I can't think of a more blatant
example. I think it's simply the fact that now the
Internet's become such a good source for news, we
know when stuff's finished, we know when hype
isn't becoming reality, and we know when people
are trying to pull a fast one. In the MK:DD
example, it was all about opinions. People cried
havoc and let slip the dogs of war at the EDGE
review, but nobody went so far as to call EDGE
dishonest. They just thought the review was wrong.

With Driv3r it's not about opinions,
because of the Atari PR element working its
skullduggery (to greater or lesser extent
depending on who you believe)behind the scenes. At
the very least, the situation is incredibly
unfortunate for the mags involved.

While
we're on the subject of mags, does anyone have a
copy of Xbox World near them? On the page before
the reviews start, is there any mention of
promising never to review unfinished code? There
is in most mags these days, can someone have a
look and quote it to
us??
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Pell
Veteran Member

Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts:
2689
Location: Modding at The Fun House

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:13
pm    Post
subject:

Okay, I admit
that it can certainly seem that way. Just don't
get caught up thinking that this must be the
explaination. It seems like far too many people
are of the opinion that something dodgy has gone
on, and that because not every question raised has
been immediately and satisfactorily answered then
this is some kind of confirmation. Speaking from
experience it's all too easy to be highly
opinionated of something to which all evidence
points towards, only for it not to be the case.

I personally believed that most reviews are of
slightly unfinished code, so for this fact to be
attacked with such verocity strikes me as odd.
However, I have no idea how magazines work so it
may be that only finished code is usually
reviewed?
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mrclam
Veteran Member

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts:
2516

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:17
pm    Post
subject:

With regards to
mario kart DD.. I'll say it again.. and stick up
for merian (soz, if i spelt that wrong).

A
review is an opinion, and opinion can never be
wrong as it's not factual.

.. In other
words.. I hate metroid prime, although most people
disagree with me.. I would give it 4 out of 10..
Im not wrong in saying this, this is my personal
thoughts. To get the most out of a review, you
read the words and dont just look at the score..
If you read my whole page review and felt you
could live with the things i've slated then you
could disagree with my final score and go out and
buy it..

This DOESNT mean i was wrong.

Now I have less a problem with magazines
giving low scores when they deserve more than vice
versa.. as if it happens the other way around i
end up buying a game i dont like.. But this ISNT
the reviewers fault.

Just because one
magazine gives a game 1/10 and another 9/10 doesnt
mean one is wrong and the other is right.. its..
an.. op..in..i..on...

As for
people saying "well these internet sites mentioned
x y and z.. magazines should never review
unfinished games"...

As I already said,
magazines are written months before they hit the
shelves.. if they waited for a finished copy of
driv3r to review it, you wouldnt get a review
until months after the game was released.

Its like movie reviewers seeing unfinished
previews.. see?

Internet sites dont have
these problems and can update immediately.

- Are these comments falling on deaf
ears?

Im not saying it's right, wrong or
whatever.. just highlighting the problems that
some of you seem to have
missed.
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GwiDan
Veteran Member

Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts:
5957
Location: Hiding the corpses...

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:18
pm    Post
subject:

Miriam_NGC
wrote:

We played MK for months
after the review, we enjoyed it so much. If
giving a high score to a game everyone in the
office had a brilliant time playing is
fanboyism, so be it. But it's not lying to our
readers.

Right, if that's the case
then fine, but reading the NGC review and actually
playing the game itself - thoroughly, including
the multiplayer might I add - I got the distinct
vibe that the review was more of a "This is Mario
Kart, of course it's great" piece instead of
reviewing the software actually being played.
Obviously, I'm not making accusations, I bought
NGC since issue 10 up until a couple of months ago
when it stopped interesting me. It was my
favourite magazine, I'll grant you that, but the

MK review didn't seem to be of the same game
that I bought.

Also, before anyone gets
their wires crossed: the Mario Kart business was
just in reply to someone earlier in the topic, and
has nothing to do with the main subject, before
you start accusing NGC of accepting bribes in the
vein of the rest of the topic.

Back on
topic then.

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bear
Experienced Member

Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts:
1159
Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:21
pm    Post
subject:

Pell if you
would care to remeber the fact psm2 claimed their
review was based on finished code maybe you could
understand why people are getting so worked up
over this.

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gismalla
Starting Member

Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts:
4

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:22
pm    Post
subject:

blah

Last edited by gismalla on
Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in
total

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KKLEIN
Veteran Member

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts:
8444
Location: Misery Guts Avenue

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:27
pm    Post
subject:

Pell
wrote:

I personally believed that most
reviews are of slightly unfinished code, so for
this fact to be attacked with such verocity
strikes me as odd. However, I have no idea how
magazines work so it may be that only finished
code is usually
reviewed?

Going back to something OPS2's
Tim Clark said on the playstation.com forums a
while ago, he said apart from the game missing the
odd box, manual & difficulty menu the code is
totally finished. If it's not it's either news or
a preview article.

There are discrepancies
in what people are saying everywhere. And if you
so wish to asking him, or ‘them’ anything else
they’re on, to my knowledge, the PS forums today
from 5-6pm.
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Eighthours
Moderator

Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts:
6606
Location: Certainty

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:30
pm    Post
subject:

mrclam
wrote:

Its like movie reviewers seeing
unfinished previews..
see?

You will NEVER see Empire
or Total Film posting a review of an unfinished
film. End of.

Such reviews are on
Aintitcool all the time of course, but clearly
marked, describing exactly what they're
missing.
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Pell
Veteran Member

Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts:
2689
Location: Modding at The Fun House

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:30
pm    Post
subject:

I think what
Cal just said aptly shows the problem with all
reviews of DRIV3R. This game is not being judged
purely for what it is. This game is being reviewed
and talked about with the added weight of all the
hype, the build up, the 3 years in the making. All
the previews saying how it looks unconvising, all
the delayed release dates time and time again. We
may like to think that this factors in no way to
the final thoughts about the game but it does. In
the same was Cal thinks that within the subtext
MK:DD is Mario and therefore great anyway, Driv3r
was all these promises to live up to whilst being
constantly innundated with unflattering previews.

Strip all this away and you would be left with
an honest review. I really do think I will get
Driv3r, partly because of all this controvesy. I
want to be able to judge for myself and not relt
on others. Does it sound like a 9/10 game? No.
Does it sound like it deserves 3/10? No. Whatever
it 'deserves', that is up for each individual to
judge.
Countless times I've heard you people
saying that reviews don't matter it's what you
think that counts. That is true. Now some people
do just rely on reviews and so if mislead by any
this is unfortunate. But it's not as if it's an
isolated incident for reviews to be different from
the general consensus, for any magazine, no matter
what publisher it may be from.

I urge
everybody with the game to in the same topic
in reader reviews write your honest
opinions.
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